tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post34977208483913189..comments2023-11-02T08:25:17.606-07:00Comments on I wonder as I wander: Absolute TruthOneSmallStephttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-28654914815258185472007-06-11T15:58:00.000-07:002007-06-11T15:58:00.000-07:00"Do you understand that the Holy spirit comes into..."Do you understand that the Holy spirit comes into you once then you are saved and the Holy spirit NEVER leaves you as the bible says? To be born again again does the Holy spirit leave you again and again or was it never in you?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I conceded this point already in regards to growth from a child to an adult in the faith - I agree. <BR/><BR/>"Very easy my friend, God tells us to look at their fruit, a good tree will bear good fruit, it is impossible for a bad tree to bear good fruit period." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Then what if the tree bears both fruits - as is the case most of the time? Then what do we do - make the judgment call since they have some 'evil' they altogether 'evil'? Or vice versa - a Christian minister serves God for 30 years or so then cheats on his wife (or embezzles) - is it all a bad tree?<BR/><BR/>"Without Christ you are condemned already (john 3:18)" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Read vs. 17 with that. And vs. 19 and 20 seem to make it very clear what this 'judgment' is John refers to - and this is an internal battle for each person and a choice they have to make. Also see John 12:47. Jesus states it clearly - 'I did not come to judge the world'. Now if he is our Messiah (Christ) then don't we him the respect to follow his teachings and 'not judge'?<BR/><BR/>2 Tim 4:2 is about Paul instructing Timothy about being a leader in the church. Reprove and Rebuke are not quite the same as judge - as I have stated previously. I can you on something (reprove) and then ask you not to do it (rebuke) but I cannot condemn you (to hell) for that action (judge). <BR/><BR/>"As Martin Luther King Jr said be thermostats not thermometers." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Just so we both are clear about King Jr. (whom I also highly admire) - you are aware this same man questioned the resurrection of Christ right? He may not have literally believed in a resurrection of Jesus...he was extremely liberal in his Christian faith views. http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/papers/vol1/491123-The_Sources_of_Fundamentalism_and_Liberalism.htm<BR/><BR/>"The last doctrine in our discussion deals with the resurrection story. This doctrine, upon which the Easter Faith rests, symbolizes the ultimate Christian conviction: that Christ conquered death. From a literary, historical, and philosophical point of view this doctrine raises many questions. In fact the external evidence for the authenticity of this doctrine is found wanting" (King Jr from his "What Experiences of Christians Living in the Early Christian Century Led to the Christian Doctrines of the Divine Sonship of Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and the Bodily Resurrection" Paper)SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-43090109472234216432007-06-11T14:06:00.000-07:002007-06-11T14:06:00.000-07:00Can you back up the idea it's a one time event and...<B><I>Can you back up the idea it's a one time event and no more?</B></I><BR/><BR/>Do you understand that the Holy spirit comes into you once then you are saved and the Holy spirit NEVER leaves you as the bible says? To be born again again does the Holy spirit leave you again and again or was it never in you? <BR/><BR/><B><I>Are you so scared of hell that you have to follow God?</B></I> I was shaking in my boots when I realized that I deserved hell because I broke God's law (Ten Commandments) and I deserved Hell. Then after my salvation I was no longer afraid because death did not hold me anymore. I was saved through Christ. I had a new heart and my sinful heart was dead forever. Does that mean I am sinless, no way, but I do not long for sin like I used to. I do things that doesn't disappoint God and am grateful for his love and the last thing I want to do is disobey our Father by breaking his laws. I ache and it pains me if I sin and I turn away from evil instead of run to it like with my previous heart.<BR/><BR/>You will know deep in your soul when you are transformed forever you will have a new heart and follow the Lord forever. If that is what you went through then you are a Christian if not you may be a believer of Jesus Christ like I was for so many years( false convert). I pray we are all Christians. <BR/><BR/><B><I>Even if this is true phenomenon who can pick one (false convert) out of the crowd?</B></I> Very easy my friend, God tells us to look at their fruit, a good tree will bear good fruit, it is impossible for a bad tree to bear good fruit period. <BR/><BR/><B><I>Jesus does not use the passage to judge others...and nowhere does it say to judge those people</B></I> Without Christ you are condemned already (john 3:18) and it makes me think of this clearly laid out verse:<BR/><BR/>2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. <BR/><BR/>As Martin Luther King Jr said be thermostats not thermometers.<BR/><BR/>For Him,<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-53321057289177258972007-06-07T10:06:00.000-07:002007-06-07T10:06:00.000-07:00"We are to judge righteously to sinning period." (..."We are to judge righteously to sinning period." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I agree - but why do we have to be that person's 'judge'? I think there is difference between actually judging someone (condemning them or freeing them - ie: forgiveness/mercy) and chatting with them about their problems in life. I think 'do not judge' is a better role to take - it opens the door for mercy (a judgment), compassion, understanding, and scripturally it's backed all over the place (ex: Jesus forgiveness of the thief on the cross in Luke). Matthew 18:15 is about 'reproving' not 'judging'. <BR/><BR/>"Acceptance and conformity are not Christian priorities. Romans 12:2" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Conformity to the what in the 'world'? The way they treat one another? The way they dress? They are not Christian priorities but mainstream church has dug it's heels in and acts like a 'business' (a worldy concept). Food for thought. <BR/><BR/>"Can you back up your claim biblically?" - concerning 'born again over and over. (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Can you back up the idea it's a one time event and no more? Romans 12:2 seems to mention the renewal of the mind idea (continual) - also in Eph 4:23 (a consistent Paul theme). <BR/><BR/>I think we begin a journey in a re-birth of spirit (John 3) but the wind is not held to only blowing once in our lives - so for the spirit (in that analogy). I think we are continually changed - also backed by Titus 3:5. <BR/><BR/>However, this is turning into scripture 'cutting and pasting' - something I dis-like doing.<BR/><BR/>"Otherwise you are a Stony Ground hearer or a false convert." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Analogy term and a label - you might want to avoid doing this to other people. <BR/><BR/>"You are born again into a new heart not over and over again." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I will concede the birth may happen at one moment - but it is the growth that is essential anyways - thus the continual aspect of it 'being born' (live). <BR/><BR/>"BTW right after hugging that atheist or muslim I would witness to them. Why? because I care for their salvation." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>If you truly care about their 'salvation' (worth) ask them what needs they are struggling with and help them resolve them (as a true friend). <BR/><BR/>"Jesus said in John 7:24 Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Jesus says this in response to judging the law - not judging a person (in regards to healing someone on the sabbath). Actually now that I think about it maybe the word judgement is only being used in that sense in the gospels - to make judgements on our interpretations of the law/teachings - this is where judgment should begin and end. <BR/><BR/>"Perfect love can cover a multitude of sins - it says nothing in there about confrontation....What verse is that?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Proverns 4:12 and 1 Peter 4:8 (love covers a multitude of sins). Check it out - I ain't lying. <BR/><BR/>"who's to say this is the only way children will learn?...The Bible (Proverbs 23 13-14 is one example)" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>It's an example its in no way the actual norm suggested by the biblical texts - not that I am against spanking - but that it's more a last resort to do to a child than anything (on which I agree with you). <BR/><BR/>"I think I already know the answer to this question but I will ask...Do you even have any children?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>This insinuation is strange but if you wanna play prophet and teacher - I don't have kids - I only have 21 nieces and nephews. <BR/><BR/>"That should make all of us have fear..." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Are you so scared of hell that you have to follow God? I admit there is some healthy fear in not wanting to destroy our lives into such oblivion we are dis-liked by all (that makes sense). But maybe this is what God wants to 'save' us from - this is the focal point of this faith - not some after-life experience which we have to colorfully imagine to understand - and even then we don;t. But someone can as plain as day understand why not to start selling drugs or hurt another person - it could lead themn down a path they can't come back from. <BR/><BR/>"Repent and Trust in Jesus if you missed the previous times I have said this. Then you will see salvation." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Dan this is extremly rude what you said here. Previous to this you mention 'do not give holy things unto dogs' - is that how you see us? me? 'Then I will see salvation'...that's a strong assumption about my faith in God - don't you think? So I can presume you think I do not have salvation? Also we are like the dogs here? This would of been better left unsaid as a judgement call. <BR/><BR/>"Very! When you lie you are saying God is a liar because you were made in his image. That makes him very angry indeed. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah if you want to see God's wrath." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I don't quite understand where you get this info from since it makes very little sense compared to someone as merciful as Jesus is. There are so many cases about how forgiving and merciful Jesus is in the gospels it's hard to portray him as angered by our weaknesses - actually I find him quite compassionate and loving in the gospels. The only time we ever see Jesus angry is when he approaches the Pharisee's (or others like them) about their interpretations of the law (Torah) and their lack of lenience towards the common person's life situation. I don't see a God that's angry in Jesus' death either? Quite the opposite. <BR/><BR/>"I suspect you are picking and choosing what to believe and that is dangerous but I am not your judge." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Picking and choosing is ignoring context of the letters and gospels and trying to make a solidifed doctrinal practice from a plethora of books - each as unique as the last (I call it 'cutting and pasting'). I am not betraying a single context of a single book in my writings - nor do I want to. If anything I pay qualified attention to each person's writings and compare them only one to another (ex: Matthew's book is to be compared with Matthew and under careful comparison with the rest of the gospels). I do not pick n choose what to believe - it's all there and I try my best to adopt those values into my life (again thinking about what value is being taught and why). <BR/><BR/>The whole 'false convert' thing has little to no meaning for us to judge anyone. I read your 6 examples all from the same parable 'sower and the seed'. Even if this is true phenomenon who can pick one (false convert) out of the crowd? Isn't that making a judgment call to do so on behalf of someone else's faith without any real proof? Jesus does not use the passage to judge others - but to point to a fact - some people will not stay with the message (simple enough) - and nowhere does it say to judge those people. Again it's one parable - and what is the point of it? It seems to point out a simple fact - not everyone will take to these teachings - they just might not want to (seeing and hearing - yet doing neither). <BR/><BR/>I think we are getting closer to a concensus here...we are Christians?SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-35617085539104167282007-06-06T00:07:00.000-07:002007-06-06T00:07:00.000-07:00OK I have one computer (my kids) working,SocietyVs...OK I have one computer (my kids) working,<BR/><BR/>SocietyVs,<BR/><BR/><B><I>we are not to judge Christians but we can judge the non-Christians...even when the commandment from Jesus to us is 'to not judge' </B></I><BR/><BR/>At the time I was thinking of Romans 14 but I will clarify if a Christian (or anyone) is sinning we are to approach him in righteousness. As Jesus told us in Matthew 18:15 But if thy brother sin against thee, go, reprove him between thee and him alone. If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. <BR/><BR/> 16But if he do not hear [thee], take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three. <BR/><BR/> 17But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. <BR/><BR/>We are to judge righteously to sinning period.<BR/><BR/><B><I>talking about judgment is not helping the case about a 'God of Love'. </B></I> He is the God of Righteousness and that is love.<BR/><BR/>Martin Luther King Jr. said “Christians should not be thermometers that merely record and reflect the temperature of popular opinion. Christians should be like thermostats, responsible for transforming and setting the temperature or standards of society.” <BR/><BR/>Acceptance and conformity are not Christian priorities. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2012:2&version=9" REL="nofollow">Romans 12:2</A><BR/><BR/><B><I>Personally, I am being 'born again' over and over - in the renewal of my mind on such a constant basis it's hard for me to figure the cold statement out you made - do you think this is one time incident (born again)?</B></I> <BR/><BR/>Can you back up your claim biblically? You are born again into a new heart not over and over again. Jesus died on the cross once and we are born into a new heart once. Otherwise you are a Stony Ground hearer or a false convert. Do you think God fails to change you over and over again? <BR/><BR/><B><I>Well this is a blog - none of us can hug you and let you know we hold no animosity towards you </B></I> Now you're just being facetious.<BR/><BR/><B><I>On a side note, it's okay for an atheist or a muslim to hug you right?</B></I> Of course, I love all of you and everyone that is not saved that is why I spend time witnessing as he wants us to. BTW right after hugging that atheist or muslim I would witness to them. Why? because I care for their salvation. <BR/><BR/><B><I>If fear is defined as 'scared' then I have to disagree</B></I> I am sure you heard the song Amazing Grace well the lyrics says what I mean: <BR/><BR/>Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,<BR/>That saved a wretch like me.<BR/>I once was lost but now am found,<BR/>Was blind, but now I see.<BR/><BR/><BR/>T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.<BR/>And Grace, my fears relieved.<BR/>How precious did that Grace appear<BR/>The hour I first believed.<BR/><BR/><BR/>What I mean is real bone shaking fear. I looked to see if I broke the Ten Commandments and I realized what a wretched sinner I was I literally was shaking in fear of the Lord and his wrath because I broke all Ten many times over. <BR/><BR/>Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.<BR/><BR/>I was very guilty. Before that I just believed in Jesus as a false convert but I found out that a belief in Jesus wasn't going to save me what matters if Jesus believed in me, after that I repented and trusted in Jesus and I new I was born again for eternity.<BR/><BR/><B><I>Correct-a-mundo. Jesus states it quite simply in the KJV 'do not judge unless you be judged'. The idea is quite simple - it's the same as 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. But the focal point is 'don't do it - so you don't get judged back'. </B></I> <BR/><BR/>Lets go over that verse <BR/><BR/><B><I>As for judging your neighbor - find me that in scripture.</B></I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Jesus said in John 7:24 Judge not according to sight, but judge righteous judgment. <BR/><BR/><B><I>Perfect love can cover a multitude of sins - it says nothing in there about confrontation. </B></I><BR/><BR/>What verse is that? I found this: 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.<BR/><BR/><B><I>who's to say this is the only way children will learn?</B></I> The Bible (Proverbs 23 13-14 is one example)<BR/><BR/><BR/><B><I>strong, meaningless authority that just gives 'do's and dont's' and no reason to stop the behavior - this is also a sign of ignorant authority </B></I> <BR/><BR/>Do you see what you have done here? I was talking about properly correcting a child and you go to this extreme, come on dude! you are very transparent right now. When a child will not listen to authority he must be spanked so he fears and respects authority. Are you saying all spankings are acting like a prick to a child? <BR/><BR/>BTW I tell my child which Commandment they are breaking, that really helps.<BR/><BR/>I think I already know the answer to this question but I will ask...Do you even have any children? <BR/><BR/><B><I>not respecting in the spirit if equality</B></I> is a child equal to a parent? Are you equal to God? is his wrath not fitting for you?<BR/><BR/>The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: Shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), Everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), Weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51), Fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish” (Romans 2:8,9), Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), Eternal fire…the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 1:7,13) Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night.” <BR/><BR/>That should make all of us have fear, like a child fears a spanking if they run out in the street after the parent told them not to.(milk) When the child grows up then the child understand the perfect love and does not fear the spankings but honors and respects the parent.(meat). <BR/><BR/><I><B>I noticed you went on this rant and never even backed it up with any hope of redemption - why?</B></I> Matthew 7:6<BR/>"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." LOL <BR/><BR/>Repent and Trust in Jesus if you missed the previous times I have said this. Then you will see salvation. <BR/><BR/><I><B>is the God you serve very angry at humanity? Where does Jesus fit into all of this - is he angry too?</I></B> Very! When you lie you are saying God is a lair because you were made in his image. That makes him very angry indeed. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah if you want to see God's wrath. <BR/><BR/><I><B>I think you might want to self-introsepct and see how much of this view of God you hold is coming from within you and not from without you.</I></B> You are truly missing God's message. It is not about me or you and what we think but what God says in his word. I suspect you are picking and choosing what to believe and that is dangerous but I am not your judge. <BR/><BR/><I><B>I dialogue here quite a bit with a lot of these people and I have yet to see a 'false conversion' in my lifetime - which I find a very presumptuous statement - what does it look like exactly?</I></B> <BR/><BR/>6 Characteristics of a False Covert: <BR/><BR/>1. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%204:5&version=9" REL="nofollow">Mark 4:5</A><BR/><BR/>2. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%208:6;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">Luke 8:6</A><BR/><BR/>3. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:6;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">Matthew 13:6</A><BR/><BR/>4. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%204:16;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">Mark 4:16</A><BR/><BR/>5. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:20;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">Matthew 13:20</A><BR/><BR/>6. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%208:13;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">Luke 8:13</A><BR/><BR/>For Him,<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-90448479901976023982007-06-04T10:55:00.000-07:002007-06-04T10:55:00.000-07:00MY computer crashed big time and i cannot post any...MY computer crashed big time and i cannot post anything. my kids computer is not much better and i can post this but i can't read anything so i will answer everything later on in the week. I should have both computers running by then<BR/><BR/>take care<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-62106756067322533742007-05-30T17:59:00.000-07:002007-05-30T17:59:00.000-07:00"We are not to judge each other as Christians but ..."We are not to judge each other as Christians but we are to judge the unsaved in righteousness." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I don't quite understand - we are not to judge Christians but we can judge the non-Christians...even when the commandment from Jesus to us is 'to not judge' (He does not seperate people into teams in that verse). I guess I am at a loss of words to this type of reasoning. <BR/><BR/>"That being said, there are some false conversions at this blog and those I “am” trying to reach." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Even if this was so - talking about judgment is not helping the case about a 'God of Love'. I dialogue here quite a bit with a lot of these people and I have yet to see a 'false conversion' in my lifetime - which I find a very presumptuous statement - what does it look like exactly? <BR/><BR/>"So if you are born again Societyvs please just say so as well as any other out there so we understand each other and we are not going against God’s will." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>So if I clarify my position and many others do also (by clarify I mean make known their 'born again' status to you) then this will put us in line with God's will? Personally, I am being 'born again' over and over - in the renewal of my mind on such a constant basis it's hard for me to figure the cold statement out you made - do you think this is one time incident (born again)?<BR/><BR/>"If anyone was to talk to me about God I would stop them fast and give them a hug and tell them I am born again and already saved. I have yet heard that from any of you so I will continue." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Well this is a blog - none of us can hug you and let you know we hold no animosity towards you - but that we share in a spirit of seeking and love. On a side note, it's okay for an atheist or a muslim to hug you right?<BR/><BR/>"Be careful of this you must not pick and choose what you are to believe and what not to." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I didn't pick n choose Dan - Jesus said those are the 2 greatest commandments and the whole Tanakh (OT) hinges upon them and nothing more. The idea of love God, love your neighbor as you love yourself - fulfill everything in 27 books of the OT. Did I miss anything that the rest of the bible can add unto this? Is there a 3rd commandment? <BR/><BR/>But if I have to pick n choose I will pick Matthew since it starts out with the idea of 'following Jesus'. You do know these books and letters all existed in various places seperate from one another in 1st century AD right? Did people without all these books in one bible all follow God?<BR/><BR/>"We are to fear God but it is because we are so grateful for saving us that we serve and trust him without question. The fear will come from the unbeliever who finds out there is God and Jesus is the Judge." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>If fear means an utmost respect/worship/honor for that same God - I agree with that definition. If fear is defined as 'scared' then I have to disagree - since this type of fear does not breed love (2 greatest commandments) but rather obedience for the sake of not being punished. I could never see anyone having a good relationship with that God (that would be a false conversion - if that even exists). <BR/><BR/>"Am I to understand that you are claiming that we do not judge our neighbors?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Correct-a-mundo. Jesus states it quite simply in the KJV 'do not judge unless you be judged'. The idea is quite simple - it's the same as 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. But the focal point is 'don't do it - so you don't get judged back'. <BR/><BR/>"Now I agree that we are to love our neighbor. How do we do this? Letting them perish into hell? Letting the man go on raping children and not judge him? God forbid, if that neighbor is a rapist then we are to judge and rebuke him." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>For the rape thing - use the phone - call the police - that's why a law exists. If you see it happening in front of you - stop it by all means neccesary - and fulfill the idea of what love truly means - laying your life down for your friends.<BR/><BR/>As for judging your neighbor - find me that in scripture. If you wanna 'judge' him - do it - but expect that same treatment back onto you. I am not sure you get what judgement means here (in some senses). If your neighbor has a name and human heart - treat him like one who can be redeemed - don't call him 'the rapist' as a rule of thumb. Get involved in the name of love and not in the name of condemnation (which is where most judging leads to). I seem to recall Jesus admired the concept of mercy (in regards to judging) - it's even a beatitude - check it out. <BR/><BR/>"Perfect love is a constant confronter. It takes far more love to confront to ignore the situation." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Perfect love can cover a multitude of sins - it says nothing in there about confrontation. Not that I am against confrontation - when it's needed it's needed - but it's usually a last resort in most cases. I am not asking anyone to ignore the situatio where problems exist - get involved by all means - but do it in a way that upholds the equality of the person and does not 'look down from above' on them. <BR/><BR/>"There must be authority and you must correct (spank) them and make them understand that you are the authority and if they do not follow you they may perish." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Okay - who's to say this is the only way children will learn? I think we need to respect authority but at the same time that authority needs to become someone we can trust also - some kids rebel because of strong, meaningless authority that just gives 'do's and dont's' and no reason to stop the behavior - this is also a sign of ignorant authority - not respecting in the spirit if equality nor respecting the brain of a child. But if this is how God has to be for me or anyone else to follow him - I would question that authority style and ask 'if God is love - is this truly someone that loves me'. Take it from me I was a product of physical and verbal abuse - it took years to repair those relationships - God forbid the God I serve is on that same track. <BR/><BR/>"The answer is NO ONE we all fall short of the glory of God. I deserve hell, you deserve hell, and Heather deserves hell." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I noticed you went on this rant and never even backed it up with any hope of redemption - why?<BR/><BR/>I am gonna be honest Dan - is the God you serve very angry at humanity? Where does Jesus fit into all of this - is he angry too? I know this much, the God we serve makes and defines what character traits we will develop - if your God is angry you will be angry. I think you might want to self-introsepct and see how much of this view of God you hold is coming from within you and not from without you.SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-5890875896984307712007-05-30T16:52:00.000-07:002007-05-30T16:52:00.000-07:00Societyvs,If you do believe that Christ is lord an...Societyvs,<BR/><BR/>If you do believe that Christ is lord and you have repented of your sins and put all your trust in Jesus then there is nothing more for us to talk about because we as Christians are not to judge each other as to say “I’m a better Christian then you”. We are forbidden to do such a discussion according to God’s word. In Matthew 7:1-3. We are not to judge each other as Christians but we are to judge the unsaved in righteousness. <BR/><BR/>My motivation here is to reach the unsaved not the already saved. That is why I am asking what Heather and other believe because I do not want to reach already saved people but the unsaved. Heather refuses to give an account of what she believes and it make me suspicious because that goes against 1 Peter 3:15. “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:”<BR/><BR/>That being said, there are some <A HREF="http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch/stream_truefalse_broadband.asx " REL="nofollow"> false conversions </A> at this blog and those I “am” trying to reach. <BR/><BR/>So if you are born again Societyvs please just say so as well as any other out there so we understand each other and we are not going against God’s will. I will assume that the people I am talking to is not saved. If anyone was to talk to me about God I would stop them fast and give them a hug and tell them I am born again and already saved. I have yet heard that from any of you so I will continue. <BR/><BR/><B>very little of the bible is actually needed to develop a Christ-like perspective</B><BR/><BR/>Be careful of this you must not pick and choose what you are to believe and what not to. This method is called eisegesis. I use an Exegesis method of interpretation instead of many who use an eisegesis method. Does this mean that eisegesis thinking is wrong, I would say yes because it is a capricious attitude. It may even be breaking the 2nd Commandment and making a god to suite yourself. <BR/><BR/><B> Is it the furnace that kept the people in line as 'sons of God'? Then why do we serve such a God? Out of fear? Isn't that the same as serving a prison guard in Guantanamo Bay? If we serve out of 'fear' than why 'love' that same God? </B><BR/><BR/>1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. <BR/><BR/>Like a Child that wants to run in the street and you tell them “no, you may get hit by a car” but they still try to run out there. There must be authority and you must correct (spank) them and make them understand that you are the authority and if they do not follow you they may perish. (Milk) Then when that child becomes an adult there is no need for spanking them because they understand and you can teach more because they trust your authority. (Meat)<BR/><BR/>We are to fear God but it is because we are so grateful for saving us that we serve and trust him without question. The fear will come from the unbeliever who finds out there is God and Jesus is the Judge. <BR/><BR/><B>The bible is not you and in some areas we are not qualified to judge on behalf of God </B><BR/><BR/>I disagree completely. Am I to understand that you are claiming that we do not judge our neighbors? Now I agree that we are to love our neighbor. How do we do this? Letting them perish into hell? Letting the man go on raping children and not judge him? God forbid, if that neighbor is a rapist then we are to judge and rebuke him.<BR/><BR/>Perfect love is a constant confronter. It takes far more love to confront to ignore the situation. The Bible is clear about this; here are just a few verses about it.<BR/><BR/>Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; <BR/><BR/>1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.<BR/><BR/>2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?<BR/><BR/><B> Then why do we serve such a God? </B><BR/><BR/>Jesus is the Judge and he will judge the sinners as he said in Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. <BR/><BR/>A just judge will punish the wicked lets be clear about that, otherwise he is corrupt and Jesus is not corrupt. <BR/><BR/><B> I would even dare say with a scale like that who knows who can even get into heaven under such a system? </B><BR/><BR/>The answer is NO ONE we all fall short of the glory of God. I deserve hell, you deserve hell, and Heather deserves hell. We all have sinned, by sins I mean breaking the Ten Commandments which are God’s law. The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don’t realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. Have you stolen, lied, dishonored your mother and father etc. then you broke his laws and the penalty is death. Jesus said there is none good but one, that is, God. In revelations 21:8 it says that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire. Have you ever lied?<BR/><BR/>For Him,<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-88740241898914077292007-05-30T13:39:00.000-07:002007-05-30T13:39:00.000-07:00Thanks for the compliment, Society. And I'm glad ...Thanks for the compliment, Society. And I'm glad you're finding something worthwhile in it. :)<BR/><BR/>Jim,<BR/><BR/>Welcome. It always amazes me how quick people are to label others as heretics. Oftentimes, I find that the event occurs before anyone has actually listened to anyone else. Person 1 will say a statement, and Person 2 judges based on internal biases.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-13149468955352010532007-05-29T21:55:00.000-07:002007-05-29T21:55:00.000-07:00Grace and Peace!Grace and Peace!jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11915526026139334265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-42109585351946606402007-05-29T21:54:00.000-07:002007-05-29T21:54:00.000-07:00Wow! It's been a while since I've heard a "fundie...Wow! It's been a while since I've heard a "fundie" (your choice of term Dan) tell it like it is. God bless you Heather. I found out today that a good friend of mine told another good friend of mine that I was a heretic. Ouch. The charge?... I don't believe in eternal damnation. The good news is that good friend number two is willing to listen to me and <I>try to understand where I'm coming from</I>. Neither of them agree with me but I see more of Jesus heart in friend number two. I understand your desire to be understood.<BR/><BR/>It's a good thing they aren't burning people like us at the stake anymore, eh! (you guessed it, I'm Canadian ☺)jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11915526026139334265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-11567445517500866642007-05-29T17:28:00.000-07:002007-05-29T17:28:00.000-07:00To be honest Heather - I haven't looked to deeply ...To be honest Heather - I haven't looked to deeply into the wheat and tares parable all that much - I really should since Dan did bring it up (I sorta feel responsible to have a good response on the issue). I feel the seperation is not a point for us to be concerned with since we do not do it anyways - but the Jesus I read is quite compassionate irregardless of the parable. Either way I have to read it more closely and what seems to be the point in the chapter it's contained in. I suck. Lol. <BR/><BR/>I really dig your blog Heather - I think you open a can of worms for us all to eat from - I mean, the dialogue is awesome here. Thanks!SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-30230971489177930102007-05-29T15:50:00.000-07:002007-05-29T15:50:00.000-07:00Quite all right, Society. I welcome your comments...Quite all right, Society. I welcome your comments. :)<BR/><BR/>One thing I've always found interesting on the wheat vs. tares parable is who created what, because the only Person who can create humans is God. The Devil/Satan/Enemy cannot create a person. And yet the parable has the enemy creating the tares, while God creates the wheat. But the tares don't affect the wheat; the two simply grow side-by-side. And if God is the only one who can create, then does that mean that the wheat and tares are actually people? If not, then what are they, and what is being seperated?OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-70768448954660998202007-05-29T14:50:00.000-07:002007-05-29T14:50:00.000-07:00The Hijacking of Heather's blog - sorry.The Hijacking of Heather's blog - sorry.SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-25748961667180995002007-05-29T14:47:00.000-07:002007-05-29T14:47:00.000-07:00Thanks for the response Dan, good to hear about yo...Thanks for the response Dan, good to hear about your biblical stance on the faith - I do appreciate some of it but again - I have to give you a slight rebuttal on some of the stuff you wrote. <BR/><BR/>"I can biblically back up my beliefs can you?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Good question - lay down a belief and I will lay down the context of the scripture mentioned - so I affirm with a capital YES I can back up my every single belief about this faith from scripture. <BR/><BR/>That being said - very little of the bible is actually needed to develop a Christ-like perspective - one might even say Matt 22:35-40 is all you actually need for this(nevermind the Tanakh). So 'touche' on the biblical inerrancy thing - I just took like 27 books and wrapped them up in 5 short verses - am I wrong? Or do you want the one verse version - Matthew 7:12. Back up my beliefs - cha. <BR/><BR/>"I guess that's why Jesus went around healing people in his present time –(SVS)...He did this to prove his deity not to save the world. Of course Jesus wanted to save the sinners and so do I." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>He did this to prove his deity? Really huh? Not really to help the demoniac or lepered fellow (who were suffering)? I find it quite amazing that Jesus response to John's disciples in Matt 11:1-5 is about helping people - to prove he was the messiah/expected one - not God (which may be the case but was not what Christ told John). Now if the Messiah of our faith did these actions in Matt 11:5 - how is it that we esteem them so little by not doing them as part of every little ministry in HIS CHURCH? Things that make you go hmmmmmm?<BR/><BR/>"Don’t you believe that God himself will protect his people from evil?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>So God will seperate the people at he end of the age - the wheat (sons of God) and the tares (sons of the devil) - even if you could distinguish them (which you cannot according to the parable) - what is the benchmark for 'evil' in this parable? Just what amount of lawlessness is aqeduate to be deserving of that furnace at the end of the ages (what measurement is used? Is it the furnace that kept the people in line as 'sons of God'? Dan...are the answers a whole community one or singular?<BR/><BR/>Not saying I disagree with what you wrote but quantifying it is the hard part. But will God seperate the good and the evil - I would say I agree with the scripture but this is not a call either of us get to make or judge upon. <BR/><BR/>"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Then why do we serve such a God? Out of fear? Isn't that the same as serving a prison guard in Guantanamo Bay? If we serve out of 'fear' than why 'love' that same God?<BR/><BR/>"I follow God’s word and I trust him as truth, do you?" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>"You must understand that God knows your thought life and you even will be judged on your thoughts" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Then judging must be in there somewhere also? Or speaking on God's behalf and mis-representing Him? Not all things are lust, rape, murder, and things leaving a trail of death - no some thoughts are as subtle as manipulating environments. I would even dare say with a scale like that who knows who can even get into heaven under such a system? Again the idea of quantifying levels of dangerous thought enter into the premises - how do we truly know what thought is evil? Are thoughts evil? Or is it the way we react to those thoughts that is?<BR/><BR/>"I suspect you are rejecting God for your own reasons." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Is this is judgement call? Is this a thought you had about me? Is this wrong to do concerning someone else's salvation you neither bought nor suffered for? If so, where does it rank on the scale of making it into heaven or not into heaven? I mean, I got questions after questions not so much about the validity of what you're saying but with the determination you do - no even if the bible says it - the bible is not you and in some areas we are not qualified to judge on behalf of God (but if we make a judgment is from ourself). <BR/><BR/>Sorry I got so long-winded and asked all these weird questions.SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-70627364548653698522007-05-29T13:27:00.000-07:002007-05-29T13:27:00.000-07:00I AFFIRM that a confession of the full authority, ...I AFFIRM that a confession of the full authority, infallibility, and inerrancy of Scripture is vital to a sound understanding of the whole of the Christian faith. I further affirm that such confession should lead to increasing conformity to the image of Christ. <BR/><BR/>I DENY that such confession is necessary for salvation. HoIver, I further deny that inerrancy can be rejected without grave consequences, both to the individual and to the Assembly. <A HREF="http://hermeneutics.kulikovskyonline.net/hermeneutics/csbe.htm" REL="nofollow">Biblical Inerrancy</A>D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-90985844010564317452007-05-29T11:19:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:19:00.000-07:00SocietyVs, You are very wrong in your viewpoints a...SocietyVs, You are very wrong in your viewpoints and I can biblically back up my beliefs can you? <BR/><BR/><B>"We are not to worry about this fallen creation anymore simple as that" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I guess that's why Jesus went around healing people in his present time –(SocietyVs)</B><BR/><BR/>He did this to prove his deity not to save the world. Of course Jesus wanted to save the sinners and so do I.<BR/><BR/><B>So our loving Father (or Abba) is going to torment people for eternity and the smells of them will rise forever -</B> Short answer “Yes” Do you believe unrepentant pedophiles and rapists will go to heaven? Do you protect your children from dangerous people? Don’t you believe that God himself will protect his people from evil? He will separate the evil hearts from his people. Remember the seed parable in Matthew 13? “his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' " <BR/><BR/>It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. <A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/3ao2qj" REL="nofollow">Go here for more</A> <BR/><BR/><B> I think in some senses Dan you have also made yourself God</B> absolutely not! You see I am a Christian, I follow Christ, and if Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the eternal lake of fire I believe him. I follow God’s word and I trust him as truth, do you?<BR/><BR/><B>So if I became a rapist and thief and then repented I would get into heaven? Like how much of each can I get away with before one or the other is 'too much' in God's view?</B> First I am not God so I can’t say if you would or would not go to heaven. But the Bible is clear about it:<BR/><BR/>Psalm 34:18 “The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” And Psalm 51:17 “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” <BR/><BR/>According to the Bible, You must have a broken and contrite heart for God to accept you. Otherwise you are too proud, which God despises. You must understand that God knows your thought life and you even will be judged on your thoughts, Remember Jesus said whoever looks with lust commits adultery of the heart.(Matthew 5:28)<BR/><BR/><B>“Who clarifies this relationship, God n me n church, me n God, or God n me n Dan?“</B> you will die alone and no church or I can help you after that, it really is a relationship with God and not religion (or church) will save you.<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>If there is no free will in heaven - count me out dude</B> I was only speculating when I said this and I have no Bible verse to back it up. I am not sure of the afterlife and I pondered this for quite some time. Because we are so wicked and evil I can’t wrap my head around us having free will in heaven can you? I look forward to that day though to answer most of my questions.<BR/><BR/>Never lose your salvation on what some dude says, that is plain reckless. I suspect you are rejecting God for your own reasons. What if there is no free will and that is God’s plan, who are you to question him? I think in some senses SocietyVs you have also made yourself God. <BR/><BR/>For Him,<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-91853247150342674592007-05-28T15:32:00.000-07:002007-05-28T15:32:00.000-07:00Dan, do you really believe all that you just said ...Dan, do you really believe all that you just said in these past posts? I think Heather and a few of us on here are Christ-ians also and we do not hold to those same views (which seem extremely exclusionary - a God of the 'have's' and not the 'have not's'?). I have to chime in at this point. <BR/><BR/>"We are not to worry about this fallen creation anymore simple as that" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I guess that's why Jesus went around healing people in his present time - because he only cared about their life in heaven and not on earth? What makes us any greater than out teacher to think we don't have to help the 'poor' and 'broken' in current society?<BR/><BR/>"Make no mistake Heather, the bible is clear about Hell" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>So our loving Father (or Abba) is going to torment people for eternity and the smells of them will rise forever - never to be forgotten? Is that the hell you talk about? Is that the God you also claim to represent? How can an all-loving being stand such torment? If I brought a 'sinner' before you and whipped for 30 straight days (all the time keeping him alive for more torture) what would you think of me? Would I be 'godly' or 'un-godly'?<BR/><BR/>"Do you think wicked people go to heaven? God forbid. Jesus gave the pluck out your eye parable for this." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>In that parable, if I am struggling with pornography - should I literally cut my eye out? Or cut my hand off? Will this make me a better person (less wicked)? And what's the dividing line for being considered 'wicked' and 'saintly' exactly? I mean Dan, you seem to know (for God's kingdom) the definition - how can you be so sure 'your right'? <BR/><BR/>"You are correct when you say that you have no idea because repentance and turning away from sin is the most important part of salvation, besides trusting in Jesus. Without it you are not saved<BR/>." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>I almost think Dan, if I may be so facetious, you speak for God? Am I right or wrong here? I think in some senses Dan you have also made yourself God - cause what if your version is flawed and you are telling people these things as facts from 'Our Father'? Or are you so humble to admit - you don not have all the answers you think you do?<BR/><BR/>"Will God welcome thieves and rapists into heaven that is not repentant, no way and neither are you welcomed if you feel sinning is ok" (Dan)<BR/><BR/>So if I became a rapist and thief and then repented I would get into heaven? Like how much of each can I get away with before one or the other is 'too much' in God's view? And just how easy is it to repent?<BR/><BR/>"It doesn’t matter if you know who Jesus is, what matters is if Jesus knows YOU." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>Who clarifies this relationship, God n me n church, me n God, or God n me n Dan? Who is the judge in this relationship - if God knows me or not?<BR/><BR/>"I just don’t know if there even will be free will in heaven." (Dan)<BR/><BR/>If there is no free will in heaven - count me out dude...smacks of mythology.SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-3303989987026945482007-05-25T13:50:00.000-07:002007-05-25T13:50:00.000-07:00Thanks, mystical.Thanks, mystical.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-58310091210159176532007-05-25T12:53:00.000-07:002007-05-25T12:53:00.000-07:00Why are we here? I just don’t know if there even w...Why are we here? <BR/><BR/>I just don’t know if there even will be free will in heaven. I know we won’t want to leave and be tempted to leave. We can appreciate Gods goodness in the presence of evil. Unlike Adam who didn’t know evil, Satan who didn’t know evil, until they fell. We do! Because of it, we so appreciate his goodness and no matter what temptation that will come our way in heaven, if that could even happen, there would be no way, why? Because we knew how horrible evil was and now we can fully appreciate his goodness. The presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his righteousness, the presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his love, and how else could he show the character of love that loves enemies and sinners if there were none? God endures this horrible assault on his everlasting holiness; he endures the horrifying blaspheming, history of fallen beings, he suffers it, the imposition it is on his purity to display his wrath to the fullest extent, to put himself on everlasting display. <BR/><BR/>Why are we here? What is the theological answer? To give the text book answer, to glorify God and enjoy him ever more. How do you glorify God? Here is how, you sinner, go get saved. Get saved so God can be glorified, that’s it; this is the purpose of this universe.<BR/><BR/>God knew we would sin, He knew we would rebel, He knew we would introduce evil, He knew it. So that he can send forth a savior born of a virgin, to live under the law to save us under the curse of the law so that, we can be a little trophy of his grace, he can always point to us as a testimony to his goodness. Read Ephesians 2:7<BR/><BR/>We wouldn’t know how God is righteous as he is, everlastingly, and give him glory for it if it hadn’t had of been for unrighteousness, we wouldn’t know he’s loving as he is if it hadn’t been for sin, we wouldn’t know he’s holy if it weren’t for judgment.<BR/><BR/>How holy is God? So holy that he must send out of his presence, everlastingly, anyone who is not fit. Why of all this? That he might make known the riches of his glory, that is, he did all of this in order that he might gather into heaven a redeemed humanity who would forever glorify him for all that he is. <BR/> <BR/>Paraphrased from Todd Friel and Dr. John MacarthurD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-46398300059294402072007-05-25T12:51:00.000-07:002007-05-25T12:51:00.000-07:00Heather,If I may I will chime in here to help you ...Heather,<BR/><BR/>If I may I will chime in here to help you understand more why we are all here. We are to Glorify God and that is it. If the only Goal is getting to heaven then we are just prostitutes because we are doing something for gain. We are to glorify God because we truly love him not to get to heaven or stay out of hell. <BR/><BR/><B><I>”The problem I have with the phrase 'getting to heaven' is that it can lead to dismissing a lot on Earth. If the ultimate goal becomes 'get everyone to heaven,' then helping people seems to lose focus.”</B></I> <BR/><BR/>John 12:25 “He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” We are not to worry about this fallen creation anymore simple as that. Do not help for gain, help because you feel they need help. For example, I am not here to help you in your walk with God for gain at all, I just know you will perish without help. For your sake, not mine. <BR/><BR/><B><I>”The second difficulty I have with the concept of heaven/hell is that I find it very vague in the Bible.”</B></I> <BR/><BR/>Really? The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: Shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), Everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), Weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51), Fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish” (Romans 2:8,9), Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 1:7,13) Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night."<BR/><BR/>Make no mistake Heather, the bible is clear about Hell and Revelations tries its best to describe heaven. It is difficult describing heaven to our limited minds; it may be as hard to describe colors to someone who was born blind also. (No “mask” references please, lol) <BR/><BR/><B><I>”The third difficulty I have with the concept of heaven/hell is that I don't see salvation as instant, I see it as a journey. ”</B></I> <BR/><BR/>You have things mixed up, let me help. Heaven is the place where souls go when we depart from our earthly body; it is where the saints live for eternity. Eternal life begins when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit, eternal life begins here on earth and yes it is a journey. When you are born again you are born into a new heart and new life goals. <BR/><BR/><B><I>”there will still be sinful behavior that I'm clinging to,”</B></I> that is enjoying sin for a season <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011:25;&version=9;" REL="nofollow">(Hebrews 11:25) </A><BR/>and you will perish with sin. Do you think wicked people go to heaven? God forbid. Jesus gave the pluck out your eye parable for this. <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=28&end_verse=30&version=9&context=context" REL="nofollow">(Matthew 5:28-30)</A><BR/><BR/><BR/><B><I>”If I hadn't let go of it before death, what makes me think I'd do so immediatly afterwards? ”</B></I> you will perish with sin when you die and immediately you will go to hell. Let’s say you love chocolate and I tell you “stop eating chocolate” you would say thanks for the advice but no I love my chocolate. What if were to explain it by saying we have to stop eating chocolate because it was proven by scientists to contain a bacterium that eats the internal organs and here are 4 million people that have died from it already? You would have no problem giving up chocolate (sin) if it meant to preserve your life. That is what sin is doing with you; if you choose to make sin your God instead of giving up sin for God you will perish. You don’t have to believe me just read that Bible and talk to God to reveal himself to you and he will. <BR/><BR/><B><I>”Fourth, I think we can be in heaven/hell right here. ”</B></I> That is not Biblical and is wrong. Does Hell have ice cream, no? Then this earth is not hell. Heaven and Hell are real places described in the bible. Your eisegesis methode if interpretation is getting you in real trouble. Does this mean that eisegesis thinking is wrong, I would say yes because it is a capricious attitude. It may even be breaking the 2nd Commandment and making a god to suite yourself.<BR/><BR/><B><I>”no idea. And I don't think it's as important as being healed of sin, right here and now. ”</B></I> You are correct when you say that you have no idea because repentance and turning away from sin is the most important part of salvation, besides trusting in Jesus. Without it you are not saved. Will God welcome thieves and rapists into heaven that is not repentant, no way and neither are you welcomed if you feel sinning is ok. When you lie, because we are made in God’s image, you are essentially calling God a liar also. He is not he has no sin and to get to heaven you must be <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=made%20perfect&version1=9&searchtype=phrase" REL="nofollow">made perfect.</A> You cannot make yourself perfect only God can do that by accepting you through Christ’s blood washing you clean and then you are made perfect. It doesn’t matter if you know who Jesus is, what matters is if Jesus knows YOU. <BR/><BR/>For Him,<BR/>DanD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-16726257364563685692007-05-25T08:46:00.000-07:002007-05-25T08:46:00.000-07:00I like what you wrote in your last comment, Heathe...I like what you wrote in your last comment, Heather. Well stated.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-32706097197567820762007-05-24T20:49:00.000-07:002007-05-24T20:49:00.000-07:00Pasterdarlene,**If Jesus didn't come to make sure ...Pasterdarlene,<BR/><BR/>**If Jesus didn't come to make sure we get into heaven, how do you think you will get there? Or do you believe there is a heaven/hell?**<BR/><BR/>The problem I have with the phrase 'getting to heaven' is that it can lead to dismissing a lot on Earth. If the ultimate goal becomes 'get everyone to heaven,' then helping people seems to lose focus. After all, why bother? Any suffering they have now will be nothing once the person is in heaven (unless the person holds the wrong beliefs). <BR/><BR/>The second difficulty I have with the concept of heaven/hell is that I find it very vague in the Bible. The OT doesn't cover it for at least half of the texts (I think the idea first gets a mention in Daniel). Jesus used both Gehenna and Sheol/Hades to describe it, which don't really translate into how the word is used today. Paul makes no mention of hell, period, and his letters come across with a firm expectation of the Second Coming occuring within his lifetime -- which would then have the new heaven and earth, and many resurrected for the last days. Therefore, he didn't develop a theology of one really going to a place after one dies. The book of Acts mentions saving people from their sins, not saving people so they can do to heaven. <BR/><BR/>The third difficulty I have with the concept of heaven/hell is that I don't see salvation as instant, I see it as a journey. When I look on my life during periods when 'sin' was defeated, it was a journey. There's a huge difference between saying that one wants help, and really accepting that help. I have no doubt that when I die, there will still be sinful behavior that I'm clinging to, and so I have no reason to believe that I'd suddenly be perfected right after death. If I hadn't let go of it before death, what makes me think I'd do so immediatly afterwards? Rather, I see death as a phase, and the journey continuing in the hereafter. <BR/><BR/>Fourth, I think we can be in heaven/hell right here. You mentioned that you think God's glory is in love, and I agree. I've had moments where I've just had a feeling of absolute love for someone or a group of someones or just in general, and there was no room for anything else. I've also had moments where I feel I was literally in hell, because I was trapped in so much baggage. <BR/><BR/>So, to sum everything up -- no idea. And I don't think it's as important as being healed of sin, right here and now.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-40152607178960009502007-05-24T16:51:00.000-07:002007-05-24T16:51:00.000-07:00that is a very interesting insight. If Jesus didn'...that is a very interesting insight. <BR/><BR/>If Jesus didn't come to make sure we get into heaven, how do you think you will get there? Or do you believe there is a heaven/hell?<BR/><BR/>I know that I finally understood the Bible better when I read it through the resurrection, rather than as a text. <BR/><BR/>One of the text's I have been especially pondering lately is <BR/>John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.<BR/><BR/>I was pondering what exactly God's glory is. I think God's glory is LOVE.<BR/><BR/>I think his love is what brought Jesus to earth and what we should be doing to continue God's glory. <BR/>Thanks for sharing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-89318137040109021332007-05-24T09:26:00.000-07:002007-05-24T09:26:00.000-07:00Hi, pastordarlene.I'm assuming that you were direc...Hi, pastordarlene.<BR/><BR/>I'm assuming that you were directly the question to me, so I will go ahead and answer. :) <BR/><BR/>I would phrase it more that the Bible gives us a way to learn about God's revelation to humanity, which was/is the Christ. I don't believe that the Bible was drafted word-for-word by God, but rather through encounters with the Spirit, and knowledge of Jesus, the writers were inspired to share what they knew and learned. <BR/><BR/>So in answering what I think the revelation 'reveals,' I ultimately think it reveals freedom. I don't see Jesus as being sent to save us from 'hell' or make sure we get into heaven when we die. Rather, I see that Jesus came to break loose the chains -- the envy, hatred, suffocating or just daily burdens of life. I see it as Jesus came to 'save' us by showing us that we could be free from sin, and embrace who we were truly created to be -- the child created in God's image and likeness. When living 'in Christ,' we no longer have to be subjected to the powers of this world. We're free. We just need to accept that.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2656181765145241350.post-53673723840901554212007-05-24T08:41:00.000-07:002007-05-24T08:41:00.000-07:00Not sure why the comment came through as anonymous...Not sure why the comment came through as anonymous, but it was meAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com